Giza aka Douglas Muth&#39;s LiveJournal

Barely-disguised derision.

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1) Is this that stupid Intro To Furry Fandom thing those dumbasses over on Crush Yiff Destroy were talking about putting together recently?

2) Even if it isn't, why the hell are you giving tripe like this publicity?

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zeeth_kyrah

Pass/Fail?
FAIL.

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giza.livejournal.com

1) This is news to me. I don't read CYD and I don't recall seeing their name mentioned on the page that I linked to.

2) It struck me as being rather tongue in cheek. If I thought that the writer was being malicious, I wouldn't have linked to it.

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It's actually mostly the work of three members of drama_awesome, which is, y'know, just as bad.

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sirfox.livejournal.com

I'm amused for two reasons.

1: it's pretty true.
2: with minor changes, it'd work for any other fantasy-ish fandom.

Most folks, while striving for originality and uniqueness, usually end up immitating somebody else. Just about everything else flows from that. May as well be amused at it.

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giza.livejournal.com

That surprises me greatly since the people in drama_awesome seem to be all about poking fun at specific individuals. These pages were much more generic, they didn't seem to targetting specific people.

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Yeah, that's really strange. I mean, it's not like drama_awesome has ever made blanket generalizations about furries before...

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I liked it. It had real observations about the furry fandom that fit my own in many areas. They make many points that are spot on, and others that are not universally valid but still relevant to a significant proportion of the subject they were talking about at the time.

No, they don't reflect all furries. No, they're not "fair". However, they do show the sort of knowledge that can only come from people who are actually involved with the fandom. As such, I would give it far more credit than the standard Something Awful fare. If we can't take the humorous criticism our own fandom jabs at us, then yes, we really are being too sensitive.

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I dunno, I think the whole LOL FURRIES thing is just hackneyed and lame. It wasn't really funny the first time I heard it, so after the 100th time it's even less so. It's all been said and done and done to death. This is less an issue of me being "too" sensitive and more an issue of uncreative wannabe comedians needing to find some new material.

I'm not the only one who feels that way. As

dylanbunny said elsejournal: "Everyone can laugh at themself, and when they want to laugh at themself, they go to sites like that. But when you shove that stuff in their face and go 'HAY LOOK WAHT UR LIEK LOL', it's annoying."

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But this isn't even constructive criticism. It's mocking derision with the intent to ridicule. It comes from drama_awesome, the community whose goal is to deride and ridicule.

Just because they know about the fandom's darker side doesn't grant it any value when that darker side is trumpeted as a biased tour guide masquerading as a bad joke. Making furries look bad, knowledgeably or ignorantly, has not suddenly become socially acceptable.

Don't fall into the trap of being so needful for the community to receive attention that judgement is distorted. Don't defend the people who mock us, it only encourages them.

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rexxwolfe.livejournal.com

You knwo one has to learnto take self critsim and look at ones self and see holy fuck some of those ARE ME. Though I debunk the urban legend part. I exist. And youknwo what those tables I frickin see descriptions like that all the time. I have fallen intot the furry traps that are mentioned. I find it is unfair and It is generalised but we do it we do it to the " Non furs" And ive read and witnessed and been involved in countless scenarios where things mentioned on that rant are more then accurate. Sometimes it can be fustrating being in any fandom. Very fustrating. I see this asa Poke saying look in on yourself and see how it looks fromt he other side of the fence I mean Shaft glisting sex.. My Character description thats sort of now very generalised for the fandom.. Yeah I admit some of those sterotypes i fall under but others i completely shatter if anything this look at furries made me both smirk grumble and look at myself. And Ya know the Psedointellectual thing is frightening. And he has flame wars and drama pretty spot on. Goes to show in any crowd we as much as we say tend to be ourselves conform to whats acceptable and what will get you liked by others. Thanks Giza.

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Y'know, experience has shown us time and again that the second the trolls get their own tactics thrown back in their face they totally can't handle it. It's all LOL INTERNET until it's their ox being gored.

Maybe ultimately that's what needs to happen to finally kill off the LOL FURRIES meme. Subject the dumbasses who perpetuate it to a taste of their own medicine. Mercilessly mock and ridicule and embarrass them until they're as sick of it as we've been.

And then when they complain about it, we can tell them to "learn to laugh at themselves" or "grow a thicker skin" or "just ignore it and it'll go away" or whatever other countless pieces of bad advice they've given us. Besides, if they can't take a little "humorous criticism," then obviously they're being too sensitive, right? Fair's fair. -:)

Yeah, I know. That wouldn't be nice.

But neither are they.

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I'm not sure what judgment I should be exercising here. Are you saying that we shouldn't be linking to things that give an incomplete view of the fandom because they might lead others to think that this is the whole story? That might be appropriate for when you're talking to the media, and I know enough to manage that (http://www.thephoenix.com/Article.aspx?id=19620) (though it wouldn't stop me telling the whole truth if asked directly), but I fail to see how it applies within the community.

Understand the viewpoint I have - I help to write WikiFur, and for that both facts and attributed opinions are required, from both furry fandom's supporters and its detractors. This "dark side" is something that most members of the furry fandom are not willing to talk about in public, because they fear that it might make them look bad in the eyes of others. Thus, the main source for this information is criticism - yes, even ridiculing criticism.

It is hardly the whole story and should be treated as such, but I can't ignore it. And yes, I will defend their right to do it too, because they do it very well and it provides an important source for information that would otherwise be easily obtainable.

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Sure, go right ahead. I might even add a link in to the Something Awful article if it's based on the facts. :-)

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I disagree. Some of the stuff that they said appeared to be a new use in criticism, and it is definitely the best example of such that I've seen as a single work (I'm open to the existence of better works that I have not seen).

They are finding new material. What you want them to find is a new topic. That may happen, but it's going to take time, and frankly I don't expect it to unless furry fandom goes mainstream in the sense that anime is mainstream.

Nobody's shoving it in your face. It was on your friends page, which means that one of your friends found it interesting enough to post on his journal. Perhaps he has friends who want to laugh at themselves. If you don't want to do that right now, don't go look. Admittedly a fuller link description might have helped, but you could tell the tone from the first few paragraphs. :-)

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Sorry, "that would otherwise not be easily obtainable".

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Reasons I don't go ahead and do it:

1) I'm nicer than these guys and don't want to stoop to their level.
2) I have better, more interesting things to do with my time.

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happywulf.livejournal.com

I thought it was awsome. =3 I liked the pokeing at the magical, weapons endowed, anime hair, avenge parents on deathbead thing that we seem to be getting a lot of these days with the youngster furs. ^.^

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I'm saying we shouldn't be giving stage-time to people who mock the community, whether using fact or fiction as the blunt instrument. Within the community it encourages that behavior when it's lauded as a valid resource, and thus that behavior becomes more outwardly prominent as more adopt and defend it.

I understand you write Wiki* and I think the absolutist approach to neutrality you take there has clouded your ability to ascertain intention, and therefore the consequences. You seem to acknowledge it's ridicule, yet you continue to defend disseminating it amongst our peers.

Sometimes getting *all* the information out there when the goal is clearly not meant to inform isn't the best approach to supporting your community. No one says they don't have a right to crap in their own backyard, but you can ignore it, and you should.

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I understand the intention. I am just not all that concerned about the consequences. What is the problem with ridicule? I simply don't get how you can't just not laugh at it if you don't find it funny, or why you care for the ridicule of those you do not respect yourself? I don't think I've ever had a good answer to this. Don't you control your own feelings?

I do not subscribe to the notion that our fandom is lessened by it. It is lessened by the fact that this information is not already out there in a neutral form, and so this is the way people learn about it instead.

My objective is not to do things that put the community in the best possible light. My objective is for people to know the truth about us, the whole truth, because I believe that is the best way to get people who will really be happy in the fandom to join us. If the only way that they can do that right now is to go to those websites, then guess what - it is a valid resource, and maybe it suggests we need to do a better job of telling it ourselves.

I strongly dislike the attitude that we should discourage people from writing or disseminating such work. It is the main reason why it is so popular - because it's something bad. It's daring, it's naughty - or so they think. The whole "keep it behind closed doors" attitude works against us here, because it just makes it fun for people to open them.

If you want less time to be given to such works, make sure we have more valid resources that explain these things that are not tinged with ridicule. This may be difficult, since to many such things are ridiculous. I do not think we are going to be able to get away from that, though. Some people will always find things that many members of the fandom do to be laughable. But who cares what they think, really?

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I guess we can't reconcile on this, we're at opposite ends of the opinion. I think about (and experience) the consequences. I neither intentionally ridicule people, nor appreciate others doing it, nor do I find it constructive to encourage others to do so. I am not convinced I should do or feel otherwise.

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